Episode 29 – Shamanic Death and the Dark Night of the Soul

Pål-Esben once had to control everything, and it led him into a burnout that nearly killed him in 2003. Today he controls almost nothing: life wears him like a glove. Amina pictures herself clinging to the riverbank until her hands bleed, rather than go with the current. And she tells how her son insisted on going to school while he was still ill, threw up, and came home having learned that sometimes Mum is right.

In this twenty-ninth episode, Amina and her teacher and guide, Pål-Esben Wanvig, talk about shamanic death and the dark night of the soul. They explore why ego death is a meaningless word, how the ego goes from being the soul’s ruler to being its adviser, what the Taoist Wu Wei and the rune Laguz have in common, and why shamanic death is the precondition for the second birth. It is part of “The Journey to Self-Realization”, a podcast about the bravest journey a human being can set out on: the journey home to yourself.

This episode is an English translation of our Norwegian original, voiced by the digital avatars of Pål-Esben and Amina.

In this episode

• The first birth and the second birth, dvija, and why shamanic death is the preparatory process that leads up to it
• Why ego death is a meaningless word, why we need the ego, and the imprints that collect like muck on the hull of a boat
• From ruler to adviser: Amina’s rollercoaster, and why the process takes at least 12 to 18 months
• Spiritual bypassing, the compulsion to control and optimise, and the Taoist Wu Wei and the rune Laguz
• Life’s glove, brain fog, and the control freaks and helicopter parents who take away their children’s chance to learn
• The dark night of the soul, the longing for home, and why spiritual snacking never satisfies it
• The 7 Golden Keys and the 9 Pillars as the foundation, and why 90 percent is enough
• Why a blade of grass is more intelligent than a human being, why there’s nothing wrong with angel courses, and daring to let go

This podcast is for you if you:

• Seek real depth in your spiritual practice
• Want to understand yourself on a more fundamental level
• Are curious about shamanism but tired of superficial “new age” spirituality
• Have taken many alternative courses but still feel that something is missing
• Feel an inner longing for freedom, love and wholeness

In a time when so many get lost in external methods and promises of quick fixes, this podcast invites you back to the only place where true answers can be found: your own heart.

Listen above, or read the full conversation below.

Transcript

A warm welcome to the podcast “The Journey to Self-Realization”, a primordial shamanic journey of development back to your true nature. This podcast is a collaboration with our favourite magazine, the health and lifestyle magazine Medium, and is devoted to exploring the bravest journey a human being can set out on: the journey home to oneself. We follow Amina, a student at the Yggdrasil Shamanic School, as she goes through a deep primordial shamanic process of development together with her guide and teacher Pål-Esben. It is a raw, unpolished journey of discovery towards true joy in life, deeper meaning, and a life that truly feels good to live.

This episode is an English translation of our Norwegian original, voiced by the digital avatars of Pål-Esben and Amina.

Pål-Esben: A warm welcome to a new episode, Amina.

Amina: Thank you, likewise, Pål-Esben.

Where we left off: the second birth

Pål-Esben: And a warm welcome to you too, dear listener. Today we’re going to carry on talking about the exciting topic we’ve discussed over the last two episodes, namely oneness, spiritual awakening and spiritual enlightenment, which we talked about quite a lot in episodes 27 and 28, the two previous episodes. What it is, and what it isn’t. And if you’ve stumbled into this episode without having heard them, I encourage you to go back to episode 27 and listen to it, and to episode 28, before you carry on with this one. Because what we’re doing now is picking up the conversation where we left off in episode 28. And today’s topic is the precondition for us to be able to go through the second birth.

In the last episode we talked about the second birth: what is it? The first birth is the ordinary birth that happens in a human being, and it happens unconsciously. When we come into this life, we bawl like a little baby. That’s the first birth, and for the vast majority of people it happens unconsciously, through the karmic pressure you’ve built up. After you die, you pass through the Bardo, do your thing there and integrate what has happened in your life. Then, as a rule, you pop in briefly to your soul and the higher self, and then you often pop straight out again, right into the next incarnation, so that you find a suitable mother and a suitable father. But most of this isn’t something you choose yourself; it’s governed by the karmic music you’ve accumulated. And through your karma you’re led to your parents, who are the starting point for the next cycle. So for most people it’s something that happens unconsciously.

Then we have some who choose the second birth, which in the yogic culture is often called dvija, the twice-born. And that’s what people who are truly, genuinely spiritually awakened are called. We talked about what spiritual awakening is and isn’t in the last episode, so now we’ll simplify and use spiritual awakening for the point where you’ve let go of your straitjacket, recognise that the grain of sand is a grain of sand, and have full access to your Sahara, where there’s no time and space, which is timeless and spaceless, and where you’re one with everything that exists. Very poetic. And the precondition for being able to begin your second birth at all, to begin to approach your Sahara, become part of it and reunite with your real nature, is that you go through a process in which you let go of this straitjacket that the intellect, the ego, our identity and the karmic memory have created for us. It’s the straitjacket that makes us believe we’re in a grain of sand, that material existence is all there is, as most people believe, while in reality it’s just a grain of sand in your Sahara. And in shamanism we call this preparatory process leading up to the second birth shamanic death. A slightly frightening word, isn’t it? What did you think about shamanic death before you started your process of development with me?

What did Amina think about shamanic death?

Amina: Actually, I think the first time I heard about shamanic death was from you. But I’m wondering about something: shamanic death and ego death, are they the same thing?

Pål-Esben: Yes. Different names for the same thing, definitely.

Amina: What I associated it with, anyway, from shamans and things like that, was rather extreme experiences. Surviving naked out in nature for two years, walking on hot coals, sweat lodge rituals. Really extreme experiences. That’s what I first associated it with: that then you’ve mastered the ego. If you can walk on hot coals, then you’ve really mastered things. And when it comes to what’s called the dark night of the soul, I lumped all of this together: we had the part that was extreme experiences, and then there was this business of the dark night of the soul and the big existential crises. I didn’t really have an overview of what was actually what, which perhaps we can talk a bit about here today. But it was when I got to know Yggdrasil shamanism that I began to understand more of what a real shamanic death is. That it’s about much more than, what shall I say, being able to walk on hot coals. This is real personal development, right down to the deepest layers. So that’s where I started. And all these terms get a bit mixed up: the dark night of the soul, shamanic death, ego death. What’s actually what, and how do you tell them apart?

Ego death is a meaningless word

Pål-Esben: Yes, and there’s a lot here, let me put it like this: people believe so many different things. There are many versions of things, and a great deal that has nothing to do with what it’s really about. Take the extreme experiences: people think they’re about shamanic death, in the sense that you discipline yourself through pain, and that by disciplining yourself through pain you gain control over your ego. Of course that has nothing to do with real shamanic death. Because ultimately, shamanic death has to do with the process in which we move the ego from being the soul’s ruler to being the soul’s adviser.

And many people have the idea that the ego is something nasty: the ego is terrible, the ego is something we have to kill. Ego death. Actually a completely meaningless word. Are we supposed to kill our ego? Of course that would create a very big problem, because we’re completely dependent on our ego just to be able to operate in this material world, just to be able to live in it. Your soul comes, via your higher self, into your body as a little child, and the soul doesn’t really have any relationship at all to this straitjacket we live in. It has none of its senses: no sight, no ears, no feeling of anything at all, no smell, to use metaphors. It has no access to what it is, and to what it really understands and knows. That’s also part of the reason why we come here, to the elite university for souls.

Why we need the ego

Pål-Esben: The ego is what’s created in the human being, the artificial part. You could say it takes the form of a program, a kind of computer program, which has nothing to do with what you are, but which is there to help you, your higher self and your soul relate to this strange, odd reality we live in. Here there are special social customs just to be able to relate to people: certain things you can and can’t do just to be able to have a relationship with others. For the soul and your higher self, for example, it makes no difference whether you’re wearing clothes or not. The soul could wander naked around town. But imagine you didn’t have an ego, that it was just your soul coming in here without an ego. Then you’d just walk naked into the shop: why should I put clothes on? It’s warm, after all. Well, that becomes a problem, because no other people can relate to it. You’re rejected, and you can’t have any normal interactions with people. That’s just a banal example of how important our ego structure is for us to be able to relate to the world we live in, and to build relationships with other people. Without an ego that wouldn’t have been possible. So what do you think your life would have been like without an ego, Amina?

Amina: Whoa. Then perhaps I wouldn’t have had things I like or don’t like. Would I have been just like a baby, then? Or do newborn babies have a trace of ego?

Pål-Esben: No. You could say they have a certain karmic structure, of course, inherited through the mother’s and father’s lines, through epigenetic lines. There are certain karmic structures there. But they don’t have any ego to begin with. Take a newborn baby: it doesn’t know how to interact with anything at all. As long as it feels safe, and mother or father is around it and shows it love, it’s OK, but it’s completely helpless. The ego is what helps us through this life, so that we can relate to the world we live in, to the rules of the world and its mechanisms. Without an ego you wouldn’t have known that you needed to eat. You’d just have wandered around, and there wouldn’t have been any meaning in anything at all. Why should you do various things? Why should you have a job? Why should you earn money? Why should you have a place to live? You’re just in contact with everything that is. But that would have led to your body dying, and then you’d just have popped back again. So it wouldn’t have worked. We’re completely dependent on having an ego. So when you hear people say that now you’re going to kill your ego, I don’t think they quite understand what they’re talking about. Because we need this part of our ego, which helps us relate to the world we live in and interact with it.

The imprints and the muck on the hull

Pål-Esben: What we’re talking about when we talk about shamanic death is something else. When the child is young, it still has very good contact with its soul. But somewhere between five and seven years old, fifteen at the most, that connection with the soul is more or less completely disconnected, because you’ve been imprinted and been given all the labels: we do this, we don’t do that. This is how you should be, this is how you shouldn’t be. This is what a man is like, this isn’t what a man is like, this is how a woman should be. In our family we do things this way and that way; everyone else is an idiot. In our religion we believe this and that, and those who don’t believe in our religion are enemies. All this nonsense that builds up in the ego, the things we call beliefs, is the problem here. That’s what we have to work through. And not least all the anxiety and fear, and all the beliefs that you aren’t worth anything. Compensatory mechanisms that lead to workaholism and burnout, that lead to obsessive-compulsive disorder, that lead to depression, that lead us into chronic illness and anxiety, and so on. It all comes from the patterns that the ego, the intellect, the karmic memory and our identity are imprinted into, in an artificial way. It has nothing to do with what you really are. It has nothing to do with your soul, nothing to do with your higher self. It’s like algae and barnacles on the hull of a boat, where the boat is you, your soul and your higher self. A whole lot of muck collects on the hull, and gradually the boat starts to move sluggishly through the water, and in the end the whole thing springs a leak. Then that creates a problem for us humans. That’s what we see out in the world: there’s more chronic illness than ever, more anxiety and depression than ever, more fear than ever, and unrest and chaos.

From ruler to adviser

Pål-Esben: So here’s an example of the part of our system, the ego, the intellect, the identity and the karmic memory, that we need to work through and heal, so that it no longer runs our life. That’s the real shamanic death. Through it we take the ego, which became the ruler over our soul as we were imprinted, and put it in its place as our adviser. But first we have to heal this layer that makes us behave like monkeys and act on autopilot, completely without aim or meaning. We believe that everything we have in our grain of sand is what’s real, and that everything else is just nonsense. In other words, we believe illusions are real. But the problem, as we talked about in the last episode, is that we’re all sleepwalkers, at least those who haven’t had their real spiritual awakening. They’re sleepwalkers in a dream they believe is real, but in reality it’s the soul that’s dreaming. And if you, dear listener, have been with us through our episodes about the soul, you probably remember that we talked about how this works. That’s what’s so spectacular: most people in this world are dreaming, that is, the soul is dreaming, and they believe the dream is real. They believe their hand is real, and their body, and their partner, and the house they live in. They believe it’s real, but in reality it’s a dream. And that’s not because the soul is sadomasochistic, but because the soul places itself in a special setting where certain kinds of learning are possible, learning that isn’t possible when it’s in its full state. That’s a bit of the background here. And how has your process been? You’ve gone through these processes and seen your ego more and more as an adviser, as we’ve talked about in many episodes. If we’re to sum up, Amina: how has it felt to start with an ego that had full control over you, and then for it gradually to become more and more of an adviser?

Amina’s rollercoaster

Amina: Yes, how has it been? It’s been a rollercoaster. But there are clear differences. Early in my life I wasn’t aware of these things, and I was just run by imprints and trauma and autopilot. I was just a victim of everything that happened outside me and inside me. And I wondered how it could ever be different. Especially for someone like me, who has struggled a lot with anxiety and been in dark places, with a lot of fear and things like that. I always had a hope that it could get better, but I didn’t quite understand how it could. Not until I began to dive into Yggdrasil shamanism and the spiritual sphere, and began to open my eyes to the fact that it doesn’t have to be like that. I’m something more than just these imprints. I’m something more than this whole onion with all its layers. I’m something more than all of this.

And as I’ve had more and more contact with my true self, with my soul, and that light has shone more and more strongly, the ego, the old imprints and the fear have lost more and more of their power along the way. It hasn’t happened overnight. There have been different layers and different things I’ve had to go through. But what I’ve also seen is that when old things, old fears and old anxiety have come up along the way, I’m able to handle them in a completely different way. It isn’t as if I sink so low that I draw the curtains and can’t talk to anyone. I understand the process in a completely different way. I don’t always understand everything straight away, but I’m held by something else. I can be in contact with my heart at the same time. I’m better able to find the harmony between these opposites. I can still feel gratitude. The times during the shamanic process of development when old things have come up again, I’ve come back much faster and much stronger. And I’m much better than before at seeing the big picture.

So it really has been a process that hasn’t happened from one day to the next. But for me it has really been about becoming more and more free from the ego’s fear, the ego’s anxiety, the ego’s manipulation and control, and moving over to the heart, to my soul, to what’s true and real in me. And I’m still learning on this journey. But the difference is so great, and I truly wish everyone could go on a deep journey of self-development like this, a journey of the soul, if you can call it that. Because then you begin to realise that things don’t have to be so uptight all the time. That’s your word, of course, Pål-Esben, but I use it. So no, it hasn’t been so uptight. It’s been quite a process, and I’m so grateful for it, because it lets me keep the bigger picture with me and get out of things faster than before. I’m able to hold more perspectives.

Shamanic death takes time: 12 to 18 months

Pål-Esben: Yes. And this ego death process, the real ego death process, which we call shamanic death, runs over a longer period of time, since it’s a process of maturation you need to go through. It isn’t something you read in a book, or hear in an Instagram reel, or see in a YouTube video, and then suddenly you’ve been through your shamanic death. Of course it’s hard work. Because first we have to identify what our autopilots are, the things that create the suffering in our life, and we have to identify how these autopilots, imprints and behaviours run our life. Then we begin to reverse the process, moving further and further away from the straitjackets, which are our autopilots, where we mostly go through life without having access to free will all the time, since everything runs on autopilot. As we’ve talked about before: we get access to more and more free will as we raise our consciousness, and then we can also begin to take more constructive action. Perhaps you’ve been on autopilot in your relationship, howled and screamed at each other like monkeys and thought that’s just how it is, suffered and suffered and simply blamed the other person for the problems you have. Then this awakening, this process of shamanic death, starts with you recognising that there’s something called self-responsibility. Yes, there’s something called self-responsibility. So what can I do here to make things better? Where are my flaws in this? And if the other person is willing to do the same, and perhaps you get a bit of help together, you can go from chaos to having a good relationship. But that doesn’t happen by sitting strapped into the straitjacket on autopilot, saying that everyone else is the problem and I’m perfect. That’s just one example.

And we started this process back in module 0. Right from the start. Because it’s a process of maturation that takes at least 12 to 18 months to go through, before you really begin to feel what you’re feeling now: you’re more and more free, you have more and more access to free will, you slip into suffering and problems less, and you have more power over your life. That is to say, your heart has more power over your life, while the ego and the destructive side of the ego have less and less. That’s the start of what we can call a shamanic death.

Why shamanic death is a precondition

Pål-Esben: So the question in all this is: why is a complete shamanic death absolutely necessary for us to find the way to the timeless and spaceless, and to find the way to our Sahara? Because there’s no way around it. When we start the profound primordial shamanic process of development, as we call it, this perhaps isn’t so important at the beginning. Then you can say: I want this, I don’t want that. Some people say: I don’t want to work on that, because it’s so difficult. Oh no, I have every right to howl and scream at my kids! I don’t have any choice, and I don’t want to work on that. Then you can choose. But what we’re doing now is freeing you completely from this straitjacket, from the grain of sand. We’re going to dissolve the straitjacket that binds you into the grain of sand, so that you understand that you’re not a grain of sand, but a Sahara. That means your nature is gigantic. It isn’t infinite, but it’s gigantic. For that to be possible at all, we need to have dissolved the straitjacket enough that we can jump in and begin to experience what is. Because the stronger the straitjacket is, the more you’re in the grain of sand, and the more you believe the dream is real. Like most people out there, the ones I call sleepwalkers: they think they’re so clever that they understand everything, and they think they’re really awake. And then they stress about one thing and another. They want a career and to earn lots of money, and they want to make sure they’re secure, and then they get irritated if they don’t get what they want. Then they live in constant anxiety about not having enough. That’s the circus going on in this dream, which the soul has put you in so that you’ll learn, so that it will learn. But to break out of this, we first have to deal with what binds you in and locks you into it. You have to dissolve that. Otherwise there’s no way out of the dream. Because in reality it’s so simple: just open your eyes, and you’re awake. Because you’re already right in the middle of your soul right now, as I talked about earlier. What do you think about these things, Amina?

Compulsory volunteering and spiritual bypassing

Amina: I think a lot. First I’ll go back a bit to what you said about choosing a little at the beginning: I want to work on this, I don’t want to work on that yet, that doesn’t exist, that does exist. I’ve been there too, where I’ve thought I was working on it, and then perhaps I haven’t seen what I really ought to be working on. My experience is that in this process I’ve been confronted with the things I didn’t want to deal with, whether I liked it or not. They’ve come into my life: just deal with this. And I’ve protested: no, no, that’s not where I am now, I’m working on this now. But the answer was: no, now you have to look at it. For me it’s been a bit of compulsory volunteering. Of course you can choose to close the door and stay stuck in the suffering of all this, but I’ve really had to face all the things you often want to run away from. Because you can also run away from this stuff that lives in us through esoteric, spiritual, alternative practices. You can escape into meditation, you can escape into nature, you can run away from things. I realised that too. Spiritual bypassing is the word used for it, isn’t it? That you bypass it, like a bypass operation on the heart. Just skip over it.

Pål-Esben: Yes.

Amina: And for me that hasn’t worked very well. I’ve had to deal with it: really face the deeper layers of my shadow, my subconscious and these things. And then you asked me a question a moment ago, Pål-Esben, which I lost track of along the way. I don’t even remember what you asked.

Pål-Esben: How lovely, yes.

Amina: Oh yes, you talked about realising that things don’t need to be so difficult: you can really just open your eyes, and then you’re there. And I’ve had periods in my life where I’ve simply realised: whoa, it really is just a matter of opening your eyes, and then you’re not just this grain of sand. And then it’s so easy to forget along the way, because the gravitational field of the straitjacket, of the grain of sand, can be so powerful at times.

The compulsion to control and optimise

Pål-Esben: It can be extreme. And then you begin to work with this, which in our tradition we also call the Path of the Heart. In the first nine episodes of our podcast we talk in detail about the Path of the Heart and what it’s about. And the more a person begins to relate to their heart and follow the Path of the Heart in a practical way in their life, the more power the heart gets, and the less power the destructive parts of our ego have. That’s also part of what we call shamanic death: you put the destructive parts of the ego in the background. You make your ego the soul’s adviser instead of its ruler, which is what it is in most people.

And ultimately it’s about beginning to dissolve the sleepwalker’s compulsion to control. We want to control life. That’s our problem: we want to control life, and we want to optimise everything. Everything from how we optimise our everyday life by planning every second of the day, to how people try to optimise their body through biohacking. From my point of view, all of this is a meaningless control mechanism, where we believe that things will get much better by optimising them. It’s one of modern humanity’s biggest misunderstandings, and it leads to a great deal of limitation and suffering.

Wu Wei: action without doing

Pål-Esben: In the old days, with Lao Tzu and Taoism, the old Taoists were a bit more intelligent. Because they had a concept called Wu Wei. And Wu Wei is a lovely word: when I think of Wu Wei, I picture a bird in the air, riding the air current, free. And what does it mean? If I’m to translate Wu Wei, I can translate it as actionless action. Or, put another way: action without doing anything. Action without doing, that’s the translation I found, and nobody on earth understands what that means, not even me. But I can explain what’s meant, because it’s a paradoxical thing for us modern people. It’s about creating a state, Wu Wei, where you’re in flow, and where you actively steer the flow, but without ego. Without effort. Without a personal agenda. You float along in surrender. That means you flow in the stream of life, in the river of life, without doing things in the ordinary sense. You don’t just drift along without any responsibility at all; you have an active flow, but you flow with the river of life. You flow with life.

And that’s a gigantic problem for modern people, since we have to control every aspect of our lives, because we’re driven by fear of not having enough. We’re driven by fear for our survival. We’re driven by fear of not being loved. We’re driven by fear of not getting what we want. So it’s almost impossible, incredibly difficult, to inspire a person who’s starting their process by saying: why can’t you just flow with this river of life instead of controlling it? Because people try to paddle against the current: I don’t want to flow with the river of life. I want to paddle upstream, I want to anchor myself to the riverbank, I want to fight there. I don’t want to flow along. And really it’s so simple, because life is life. And the more we flow with life, the more what’s called dharmic synchronicity plays out, which we talked about in an earlier episode. So, what about you, Amina?

Amina: As you were talking, a film started playing in my head. It’s about me, but it could probably stand for quite a few people. I picture the beautiful, lovely river, and then you come across some stones and various things there. And then I see myself just trying to cling on to the side of the river, digging into the mud, tearing up my nails and hands until they’re all bloody, because I absolutely have to hold on to the riverbank. I don’t want to go that way, I want to go this way! Just refusing to go with the current. Yes, that’s been the story of my life, really. And I’ve definitely also had the chance to experience what it’s like when you truly surrender to the flow of the river. I’ve realised that the times I’m suffering are the times I try to control where the current should go. The river goes that way, but we try to build a little dam here, we try to dig a bit. It’s so much struggle and stress. Things are as they are, and you can feel good about that, as long as you don’t start controlling. From the ego’s perspective you might think it perhaps wasn’t all that optimal, but things can feel good even if they aren’t optimal from society’s or the ego’s point of view, as long as you follow and flow with the river. And that’s not the same as saying you should embrace it when someone harms or hurts you. But: OK, now this has happened in the river. What can I do to flow with that process, so that I can be as well as possible in this, instead of resisting what’s unavoidable, or what has happened, or what’s going to happen?

The sailing boat and the rune Laguz

Pål-Esben: Yes, because it isn’t about ignoring life. Another metaphor for this is that you have a sailing boat on the sea. Not taking responsibility is having the sailing boat without a sail and letting wind and weather steer you wherever they like. But what we’re talking about here is sailing on the sea: setting your sail and flowing with the wind. Like this bird: when I think of Wu Wei, I see myself as a big bird in a current of air flowing upwards, where I flow with this wind and air current, with my wings, completely without effort.

And the concept the Taoists use, which they call Wu Wei, we find in our Norse tradition through the rune Laguz. Many people think Laguz only has to do with water, with flow. Yes, it does have a bit to do with water and flow, but it’s about exactly what I’m talking about now. What the rune Laguz really describes is what the Taoists describe as Wu Wei. And it shows that there are so many deep layers to what you can understand: on the surface you think this rune is just about water, but when you slip down through the layers, there’s an incredible depth behind each of these concepts, behind each of these runes, once you really begin to understand them.

Life’s glove

Pål-Esben: What we’re after through a shamanic death process, as a preparation, a precondition for the second birth, is that you learn more and more to flow with this river. Purely metaphorically, it isn’t that hard to imagine what it’s like. It has to do with surrendering to life: not to the ego, not to the fear, but to life. And in my case I know what it feels like to try to control everything. That led me into a burnout that nearly killed me in 2003. Back then I was a control freak. I had to control everything, driven by fear. Today I live very differently, because today I know what’s the dream and what’s real. You experience it. That means that today I control almost nothing. I flow with what is, and don’t quite know what will happen tomorrow, or today, or next year. But life wears me like a glove. I’m life’s glove, and life guides me through my everyday life. Of course I have things I need to do, like the two of us doing a podcast, but that’s something I do as part of flowing with this river, because it’s right for me to do. It’s what’s right for my heart. Helping you and other students in your process of liberation is something I do because it matters to me. It’s a natural part of my river.

And being able to flow with this river without being a control freak also meant that I came to the point where I accepted that for several of my health problems there may not be a solution. I flow with it. Of course I take responsibility for it, but I don’t go around beating myself up: why can’t I find a solution? Why don’t I get well? Why do I still have the brain fog? I don’t want it to be like this! That would be paddling against the current. Flowing with the river means I accept that the brain fog is there some days, and then I can’t, let me say, function properly, as the ego would put it. But that’s completely OK too. Because I flow with it, and if a day comes when my brain isn’t working, I say: OK, then I can do other things. Then I can be at peace with it. It’s not my enemy any more. And the less these things are our enemy, the more they’re our teacher, and the more we can go through our process of growth. One of my experiences is this: the more I fight against things, the harder it is. And the more I accept that OK, this is how it is, and make peace with it for now, while keeping my eyes open for solutions, for others who can help me, a doctor, a therapist, a coach, whatever it takes to resolve the situation, the less of a problem the problem is.

Control freaks and helicopter parents

Pål-Esben: And that’s an example of what happens when a person begins to dissolve the straitjackets that the ego, the destructive ego, binds us into. You loosen up, and you’re better able to flow with life without controlling it. You’re better able to sit down and chill out, instead of having to use every minute of the day to do something. And you become better able not to be the kind of mother animal or father animal who has to control every single thing the kids do, and instead hand over a bit of responsibility to them, depending on their age, of course. Because how many parents today are control freaks about their kids? I remember when I was young, and that was almost before the war, that’s how long ago it was. We’re old, after all, aren’t we? In the old days, when I was four, five, six, seven, eight years old and upwards, we didn’t have parents hovering around controlling what the kids did. We climbed trees and fell down, we climbed on roofs, we climbed everywhere and fell down and broke a foot here and there. But nobody died of it. And what’s it like today? Good grief, when I see the parents: oh no, the kids can’t do that, what if they fall and break their foot, what if this, and what if that! We live in a control-freak world, where this straitjacket is ridiculously strong. But as you dissolve this, you begin to notice: aha, the kids need to be allowed to learn too. I can’t take all their learning tasks away from them. They need to be allowed to fall flat on their faces and get a black eye. They need to be allowed to break a foot, so that they begin to understand. With limits, of course; you don’t let a kid start a fire. So, Amina, as a mum: what do you think about this business of being a control freak? Is it starting to loosen up a bit?

Amina: Oh yes, I absolutely agree, and it’s something I’ve been very concerned with too. And I’ve caught myself at it in some areas: whoa, perhaps I’ve had a bit too much need for control there. But as I’ve gone through my process of development, I’ve also been able to meet my children in a completely different way. I understand that even if I’m the best mother I can be, based on what I’m capable of right now and what I’ve learned, there are some things I can’t, quote unquote, save them from. They have to go through their own things, they have to experience their own things. I actually had a nice example of that the other day. I don’t know if it’s a good one, but it’s the closest I have: my son had been ill for a while, and then he thought he was well. Then he wanted to go to school, and I said: you’re probably not well yet, there’s probably more to come later in the day. No, he wanted to go to school. So he was allowed to go to school, and then he threw up. And what was so nice was that when he came home, we could have some deeper conversations: “Today I learned that sometimes Mum is right.” There are many nice moments like that. And what I also see, now that my son has been really ill, is that I’ve begun to see the beauty, the good, the learning in incidents like this. He threw up, and he was terrified of throwing up; he had a big fear of it. So the only suffering he really had wasn’t throwing up, but the fear of throwing up. Then we had the chance to talk about exactly that: what is it you’re actually afraid of? And I could talk with him about deeper things around fear, and fear of fear, things I could never have talked about with my 11-year-old if this hadn’t happened. So I see the good things that come out of what isn’t always so pleasant. The same with my daughter, who’s going through bigger things: disagreements, battles and wars with friends and teachers, one thing and another. Good things come out of it when you can see it for what it is. But yes, let go of control. I notice that she needs to be allowed to try and fail when she’s out in the world. She’s nearly 13 now, so she isn’t allowed to fly to the moon. But I notice that it’s an important part of learning the rules of the game of life: whoa, if I do this, then that happens. Instead of a mother or father sitting there controlling every single second of the child’s life. The child also needs to learn, for better or worse.

Pål-Esben: Yes, and that’s an example of more Wu Wei. I come across a lot of parents who are control freaks like that, slash mother animals, or helicopter parents, different names for the same thing. I notice it very often. One example: the kid has done something wrong, for example they’ve stolen something from a shop, as many kids do. Then the adults keep trying to sort it out for them, so that they don’t face any consequences. That’s a typical example. Something so meaningless. Here the kid has stolen from a shop, and then the parents try to fix it so that they don’t have any trouble with the shop either. Instead of letting the kid experience what the consequences are: I’d have taken them to the police station and let them have the most unpleasant experience of their life, and then you learn that you have to take responsibility for your actions. But that’s not how it is in society today. I very rarely meet parents who are willing to let their kids learn from this. They try to sweep things under the carpet and fix it. So that’s part of the control mania we find in this straitjacket, where you’re fully and completely in your grain of sand, fully and completely a sleepwalker in your own dream.

The dark night of the soul

Pål-Esben: And as you begin to dissolve this through a real process of development that runs over time, these things begin to happen to you: you become more and more able to flow with this river, with responsibility, of course, as we talked about. And then life also becomes much more exciting. What happens is that the straitjacket begins to dissolve more and more. You begin to become more and more flexible. Because how do you think you’re going to find your way into the timeless and spaceless, your Sahara, as long as the ego has its power, its control, its straitjacket? You don’t stand a chance of breaking out of it. You can only do that when the straitjacket is flexible enough, when you’re sufficiently in flow. Then you can break through the layer that the straitjacket is, and dive into your Sahara. And that’s the reason, very briefly, why a real shamanic death is an absolute precondition for having a permanent state of oneness and being able to experience it. Anyone can drop into a state of oneness for a few seconds, through an extreme experience, or by using drugs or whatever it may be. But that’s not what I’m talking about. We’re talking about having permanent access to this state. And for that to be possible at all, you have to have gone through this process.

Otherwise you end up stuck in what’s called the dark night of the soul, which we talked about in the last episode. The way I use the term, it’s the time from when we lose access to our soul, between 7 and 15 years old, when we’re imprinted and no longer have any contact with our soul through all the imprints and experiences we have. And the dark night of the soul lasts until the day you start the process of beginning to wake up. So the dark night of the soul can go on over many, many incarnations. Or it can end in this life: you come to the point where something deep inside you says that you long for something more. I have a deep feeling in me, something calling out that I want to come home. It isn’t the ego, it isn’t that I want power; it’s something deep inside me, something even deeper than our heart. When this pull, this gravity, happens inside us, we notice that it’s time to start doing something. It’s time to begin a process. And at that point you don’t know what it is. You just have a longing for something.

Spiritual snacking doesn’t satisfy the longing

Pål-Esben: And then the search begins, far and wide, in the esoteric world. You have to go through any number of things, where you taste a few spiritual sweets, a few sweets here and a few sweets there. You learn a bit of NLP, you learn a bit of astrology, you learn a bit about angels and channelling and whatever it may be. But you notice that this search, this longing, definitely isn’t satisfied, because you’re searching for something else. Then it’s time to find a suitable guide. Then you come to the point where you recognise that sweets and short videos on TikTok, spiritual snacks all the time, snacking, will never satisfy this longing. For that you have to be willing to go into a profound process, and for that you need to find a suitable guide and teacher. If we study what the yogis and the yogic culture say about this, we see that it’s impossible to go through a real process of awakening without a guide. Quite simply because: how are you going to get out of this ego-dominated straitjacket when you don’t even understand that it’s a straitjacket? When you don’t even understand that what you’re experiencing is an illusion, when you don’t even understand that you’re a sleepwalker in your own dream, which you think is beautiful? How do you think you’re going to break out of that? It’s as meaningless as asking a person who’s dreaming and believes the dream is reality: how are you supposed to have any idea how to get out of the dream? That’s the reason for all the frustration out there, where people learn and learn and learn, and don’t really get anywhere in their lives. You learn a great deal that’s exciting, a great deal of entertainment and all these things that are rewarding. But when I talk to people who’ve done the rounds, they all see the same thing: I’ve learned a great deal that’s exciting, but really nothing in particular has improved in my life. And this longing, this emptiness I feel inside, is still there. Why is that?

Amina: Yes, I notice that with my students too. We just had several conversations like that with people on the basic shamanic training, in the different cohorts, who also talk about this: I’ve studied that, I’ve done that, I’ve done this and that. And who can also be a bit afraid that this too is just one more thing, one more course. And in a number of introductory conversations, with those who are a bit unsure whether to go this way or not, I can see in them that the soul is longing, the heart is longing. Here you’ve been given something, an invitation, an impulse: perhaps this is the path for you. And at the same time you’re so afraid that this is yet another course like that. You’ve spent a lot of time, money and resources over the years. But what I notice very early on, in those who’ve begun the process on the basic shamanic training, and in those going into the senior shaman training now, is this: wow, I’m so glad I listened to myself, even though I was scared, even though I had fear, even though I thought I wouldn’t manage this, that this was just another one of those things. Because they notice the profound development they’re getting. They’re coming closer to their heart and their soul. It’s really beautiful.

The soul’s epic journey begins

Pål-Esben: And it’s important to be aware of this, if you have this longing, this voice inside you that says you’re really searching for home: by home I mean home to the higher self and the soul, not something ego-driven, but what lies much deeper than the heart. Because there are many people who say they’re searching for home because they’re tired of life: no, I don’t want life to be like this. That’s not the longing I’m talking about; that’s the ego’s thing. I’m talking about those who have the deeper longing for what’s real. And then it’s absolutely necessary to move away from spiritual snacking and spiritual sweets, and into a real process of development with a qualified guide, teacher or guru. Otherwise this would be close to impossible. We can see that from the experience of many thousands of years in the greatest traditions: Buddhism, the yogic tradition, Sufism and so on.

So when you come to that point and are really ready to start this process of setting yourself free, and we begin by putting the ego in its rightful place through what we’ve talked about today, that’s when what we call the soul’s epic journey starts. Because that’s exactly what happens when you notice that the dark night of the soul is beginning to come to an end. You notice that now you’ve had enough of drifting around in this dream, in this grain of sand. Now I’m ready for something more. Now I’m ready for reality, now I’m ready for the truth. And when a person comes to that point, the soul’s epic journey starts, and then the process of development starts.

The 7 Golden Keys: the foundation

Pål-Esben: And what you need now, in this process that can be called shamanic death, is something practical to relate to, so that you can do the task we’ve discussed today at all. Because how are you supposed to come closer to your heart, for example, just by closing your eyes and saying “oh, now I’m going to live in love”, or by having one of those pink energy clouds that says “oh, now I’m living in love”? That doesn’t mean a thing. This business of being love is one of the most meaningless things I hear. Love is something practical. It’s a result of how you are, how you act, and how you treat others and yourself. Not just closing your eyes: now I’m in a pink cloud of love. That’s one of the problems in the esoteric world, where there’s a great deal of talk about living in love. But I often come across people who say they live in love, that they’re so loving. And when you see what they do, it’s the opposite. I call that the shaman’s pelt syndrome.

Amina: Yes. You find that in several places. I once took part in a guided meditation where we were supposed to dive into love. It was so lovely and fantastic, or that’s how it was introduced, but the whole way through I felt that something here was false, something here wasn’t real.

Pål-Esben: Yes. You can trigger the hormones through guided meditation and so on. You can trigger the hormone system so that you feel your material form of love. But that’s hormone-driven love, and we talked about that in detail in the last episode. In our tradition, when we start helping a student through this process, from day one we start teaching something called The 7 Golden Keys, the path to a happy and healthy life. Because that’s where the whole thing starts. It’s the foundation for any real process of development. Golden Key number 1: mastering the art of consciousness, that is, the art of becoming conscious. Because without becoming conscious of something, you can’t touch it, and you definitely can’t do anything about it. Golden Key 2: mastering the art of self-responsibility. Because as long as you blame others, you don’t stand a chance. But when you take responsibility yourself, OK, let me work on my things, let me take responsibility for my actions, my thoughts, my feelings, then the next step in the process of development starts. And the third key is about understanding what free will is, and expanding the potential of your free will. So we have these keys, which are the foundation of the process of development. Because without consciousness, self-responsibility, free will and these things, it isn’t possible to make any change at all. Then you’re just dabbling on the surface of things.

So this is one of the first things our students are introduced to. The book is even called the Bible now; we’ve had some students who referred to the Bible and had to clarify: no, I mean The 7 Golden Keys. It’s a different book from the usual old tome we’re used to. Because one of the reasons for humanity’s straitjacket is dogmas and imprints, which are some of the hardest parts of the straitjacket to break out of. Once we’ve begun talking about these Golden Keys and gained experience with them, with what it actually means to take self-responsibility, and you begin to experiment, then you realise that life becomes even more joyful, very quickly. Then we introduce them to the 9 Pillars for Finding the Path of the Heart. We talk about them in detail in the first 9 or 10 episodes of our podcast. Becoming a master of gratitude: what we’re talking about here isn’t just becoming grateful and doing a gratitude exercise, which is where everything starts, but gradually becoming grateful without doing anything. That’s the process. And the next one is forgiving yourself, becoming a master of forgiving yourself and others. At the start we learn forgiveness exercises, but gradually the art is to become forgiveness, so that forgiveness happens spontaneously without you doing anything. Then we work on physical, emotional and spiritual self-regulation, on how we create a healthy value system, how we see the glass as half full instead of half empty, and so on. That’s what we talk about in the first part. It’s our foundation for guiding a student through an active shamanic death process, an active process where the heart takes over as the boss, and the ego becomes the heart’s adviser.

The book that revolutionises lives

Amina: Yes, and it’s almost a bit outrageous, Pål-Esben, that we haven’t had an episode about these Golden Keys. It’s shameful, isn’t it?

Pål-Esben: Yes, it actually is. I’m thinking of a student who started module 0 six or seven months ago, and who has been waiting for the basic shamanic training to start. In that time she has worked with The 7 Golden Keys. And just from having been through module 0 and having worked wholeheartedly, really wholeheartedly, with The 7 Golden Keys: what a process of development she has had! The point is that there’s a great deal to be gained from The 7 Golden Keys if you really go into them wholeheartedly. And if you use them actively at the beginning of your journey of personal development, you lay a very good foundation, while at the same time working with them all along the way, because there are always new things to dive into with them. The book about The 7 Golden Keys really is the book of the century, in my opinion. A great many people have revolutionised their lives by starting to use it actively, a great many. So that’s what I’d encourage, if you, dear listener, are wondering how to start this process in a practical way: get hold of the book. You can buy it in bookshops or on my website, or from Amina; you’ll find that book everywhere. Read the book, and start working with these Golden Keys. I’ve never seen a person who has started working with these things authentically without revolutionising their life within a few weeks, especially once you begin to understand this business of self-responsibility and consciousness and free will, which has a massive impact on your life. Both on how you treat others, and on how you treat yourself in relation to the world around you. So that’s a good tip for where to start this work in practice, on your own to begin with, of course.

Amina: Yes, and the book is also very easy to read. That’s what I hear very often: that you make complex things very simple and tangible, and that it’s actually possible to put what’s written there into practice. It isn’t one of those self-development books full of big concepts and theories. It’s very tangible. So I just wanted to say something about that too.

90 percent is enough

Pål-Esben: So that’s a fine start. And what we’re talking about here is this shamanic death, even though of course it’s really the wrong word for all this, just as ego death is the wrong word. But it’s a process you go through, where you gradually free yourself more and more from this straitjacket and your autopilot. It gets looser and looser as you become more and more oriented away from the ego’s autopilots and automatic behaviour and the emotions that come out of it, and more and more oriented towards your heart, which is a direct link to the higher self and our soul. And through that alone, life will change radically, for everyone who engages with it. I’ve never experienced a student whose life hasn’t changed radically just from starting to work with The 7 Golden Keys and the 9 Pillars for Finding the Path of the Heart, especially for those who do it hand in hand with a guide and get a bit of help with fine-tuning.

So that’s the foundation for the second birth to be able to happen: that you’ve gone through this process well enough. Do you need to be perfect at everything? No, you don’t. Before the final awakening you need to get at least 90 percent of the way. But the last 10 percent, I say, is part of being human. You never get away from that last bit, because now and then the hammer strikes your tailbone, and the first chakra explodes. You go into fear mode, flight mode or attack mode, since that’s our genetics at work. So you can really just forget the last 10 percent, because it’s part of our genetic nature. When we’re triggered enough and end up in an extreme enough situation, our genetic autopilot will take over. But if you gradually get up to 90 percent, this straitjacket is so see-through, so transparent, that it’s no problem to break out of it. And that’s what we need to be able to break out at all, and to begin to experience a more permanent state in the timeless and spaceless, in oneness, where the real, genuine process of spiritual awakening starts.

You are the river

Amina: Where you stand now, today, Pål-Esben: do you have shamanic deaths like that? Or is there a point where you don’t have shamanic deaths any more?

Pål-Esben: Yes, you come to a point where what I’m talking about today isn’t theory, but the way you experience life. First it’s about understanding the river, and then you have to understand the boat, and then you have to understand that perhaps you should find your way into the boat. And then you have to learn how to flow in this river without controlling, while at the same time steering around the stones. Then you have to learn how not to start digging tunnels because you want things your own way. And then you have to learn how not to paddle against the current. Once you’ve begun to learn this, which is trial and error, as you know it is too, you gradually become part of this river. You’re not floating in the boat any more: you are the river. And that’s why, when I hear the word Wu Wei, it’s a very poetic, lovely word to me. Because that’s what I feel: you are the river, you are life. It’s like this bird that just floats on the warm, rising wind and simply rests on its wings, not because it has to, but because it’s completely natural, because that’s the bird’s nature. And that’s how it feels. This is something that lives in every human being. The problem with humans is that we don’t live out our real nature. Every blade of grass is more intelligent than a human being.

The blade of grass as teacher

Amina: And how can you say that a blade of grass is more intelligent than me?

Pål-Esben: Yes, I mean it quite literally: a blade of grass is more intelligent than you. Why? Well, because it lives out its full and complete nature in every moment, without limitation. Every bird is more intelligent than a human being. Every tree is more intelligent than a human being. Because what separates a blade of grass, a bird and a tree from a human being is that they live their fundamental nature fully and completely, without limitation. And the day a human being comes to the point where they live out their full and complete nature to the full, without limitation, they’re spiritually awakened by definition. Then you’re awake. That’s why I say that when we walk this process towards awakening, real awakening, oneness, through the primordial shamanic, profound process of development, we have a very big advantage compared with, for example, the yogic culture. Because we use nature as a tremendous reservoir of insight and healing and wisdom, and not least as an important part of our process of development. Because when you look out into nature, everything you see is more intelligent than you. That means you can use the blade of grass, the bird and the tree as teachers in what it means to live out your full nature without an agenda, without control. It simply is what it is. And the day a human being simply is what they are, then they’re there. Then you’re awake.

That’s the thing: we’re trained, by design from the soul’s point of view. We’re trained and imprinted to believe the dream is real. That means we’re our ego, the artificial identity that has been created, the intellect and company, in its own world, where it has its own specific agenda for how things should be. And that has very little to do with your real nature. So it’s a bit of poetic talk, what I’ve said about this. And that’s why, when you look out into nature like this, it’s impossible not to fall in love with a blade of grass, impossible not to fall in love with a tree. And we’re not talking about the human infatuation that’s driven by hormones; we’re talking about your real falling in love, which is so radically more powerful than your hormonal infatuation. That’s how my life feels to me. When I wake up, when I dream at night, perhaps I dream in a slightly different way from most people. But that’s how I experience my life.

Does that mean I’m perfect? Does it mean my life is just a bed of roses? No. As the wise Zen masters often say: Before enlightenment, you chop wood and get water in the river. After enlightenment, you chop wood and you get water in the river. In other words, before enlightenment you chop wood and fetch water from the river, and after enlightenment you chop wood and fetch water from the river too. So life isn’t different. But how you experience life is something completely different. It’s not as if you’re ill less often or have fewer problems or fewer challenges. But the way you deal with them is radically different. You feel free, instead of being in this straitjacket.

Without a filter

Pål-Esben: And now and then life happens in a radical way, a more intense way, where the first chakra is triggered. It’s as if Thor’s hammer strikes a part of the tailbone, and the whole first chakra goes bananas, and you slip, for a moment or two, into flight mode, fear mode, attack mode. The emotions come up, often uncontrollably. The first emotions in a human being are uncontrollable, because they just come up. But when the emotion comes up, we have a choice about whether we want to develop destructive feelings out of it. That’s where we have a choice: not in the first impulse that comes up, but in what we make of the emotions our hormone system draws out. Do we amplify them into something more negative? Or do we see what it is? And now and then you slip and make a mistake there, where perhaps you say something to someone that isn’t so good. For example, I get impatient with my dear wife. And I think that happens whatever relationship you’re in: now and then something happens, and you get a bit huffy. And if it slips under my radar, then once I notice it, I apologise afterwards and say: I was off my game there. But it’s becoming more and more the exception that things like that happen. And it literally feels as if you’re free. Really, literally free, even though you’re living the same life you had before. So it’s well worth it, because you’re no longer run by anxiety and fear and control. In the old days, before my burnout, I was very concerned with what people thought of me. But today it’s absolutely irrelevant what people think of me, what they feel about me, what they say about me. And that’s also the reason I say exactly what’s on my mind. Without a filter.

Amina: How can you say that? How can you say that most of the esoteric world, what goes on out there and on YouTube and so on, has nothing to do with reality? That’s like saying everyone’s an idiot.

Pål-Esben: I’m not saying everyone’s an idiot. I’m saying that most of what’s out there has very little to do with reality. It has to do with the dream. If I were to sit here now doing a podcast with you with the aim of attracting as many people as possible, the way it’s often done, by just saying what people want to hear, then what you share is spiritual sweets, snack content. For me personally that’s meaningless. And you, dear listener: if you’re sitting here after 28 episodes, still with me, then you’ve got used to both me and my ways, and perhaps especially me. I’m perhaps a bit blunt, but always with humour, and I say that each person chooses for themselves. Each person has to use their free will, or at least make a choice. But what you need to do is stand by the choice you make and take the consequences of it. That’s what’s so lovely about us humans: we have that advantage over the blade of grass. The blade of grass has no free will. It lives its nature fully and completely. The problem when we introduce free will to a being is that we have a choice not to live our nature. And that’s the problem with the dream.

Nothing wrong with angel courses

Amina: Yes, that’s lovely to listen to. And when it comes to what you’re saying about what’s out there in the esoteric world, and on YouTube and TikTok and all these things: I don’t know if you called it YouTube gurus or something like that earlier?

Pål-Esben: I do call it that, yes.

Amina: Yes. At first I didn’t quite understand what you meant either, and thought: what does that actually mean? But as I’ve gone through this process of development, I’ve begun to understand it more, and why it doesn’t belong to reality. And the way I’ve understood it, and now you’ll have to correct me if I’ve got it wrong: all the esoteric things people busy themselves with are still part of the dream. The grain of sand. The path to oneness, which we’re talking about in this series of episodes, is something completely different from all that. People tend to think that as long as something is spiritual and not practical and material, then it’s what’s real, then it’s reality, then it’s the truth, then it’s home. But it’s something other than that.

Pål-Esben: Yes, and there’s nothing wrong with it, when you take it for what it is, because you can have many lovely experiences with many lovely things. You can go on an angel course and learn about angels and feel really good. It can mean a lot in your life, by giving you a counterweight to the madness in your life, so that you come across something that’s exciting, something that’s fun, something that’s meaningful. You learn meditation and guided meditations that can activate serotonin and dopamine, so you feel better in your everyday life. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. Are you with me on that? We have to make the distinction: there’s nothing wrong with it. It can be great for many people, so that they become curious about things. But if you’re going to walk this genuine, really deep process of development that you’ve been through, you need something completely different. That’s what I mean. I’m not saying you shouldn’t do any of these things. Because I was the same: what was the first thing I ended up in when I started? I ended up on a reiki course, and it was very exciting. And what did I do after that? I ended up on an angel course. I had a fantastically lovely experience of being in contact with an angel and thought: what? What is this? I thought I was beginning to understand things, but first and foremost it helped by inspiring me to go further along the path. And gradually I learned about the I Ching, about astrology, about different meditation practices, about shamanism, about Kabbalah. I went through all of this because I didn’t know how to find my bearings. So I was everywhere. I wanted everything. Give me everything. I did five or ten things in parallel, because I was so curious. That was the start of my process. Until I came to the point where I began to understand more of what things are really about, what this grain of sand and the Sahara are about, what this dream is. And gradually you change focus.

So that’s why there’s nothing wrong with searching. But the challenge is that if you’re searching for something real, and believe that what you’re getting is real, you often end up lost in the woods, where you don’t reach what you’re longing for. You end up stuck. And the only things out there I distance myself from are those connected to fear and control. Such as what we’ve talked about, fear-driven shamanism, where there’s talk of protecting yourself against demons and evil energies and all those things. I distance myself completely from that. And anything to do with spreading more fear in people, anything to do with taking self-responsibility away from people, I distance myself from that. So that was a slightly more detailed view of these things.

And everyone finds their way. What matters is that everyone follows their heart. You followed your path, and got the result because you’re walking a real, profound path of development. Are there other real, profound paths of development? Of course there are. Buddhists have been doing this for thousands of years. In Zen they’ve been doing this for thousands of years. The yogic tradition has done it for thousands of years. So there are many other paths. But they’re very specific paths for finding your way back to what you’re longing for. So I find it exciting. How boring would it be if everyone in this world were the same? I think diversity is one of the joyful things we have in the world.

Amina: Absolutely, absolutely. There’s something for every taste.

Daring to let go

Pål-Esben: I think that wraps up this episode. Now we’ve talked about the precondition, the most important precondition for the second birth to happen. And the challenge we find in society is that most people searching for these genuine spiritual awakenings aren’t willing to go through the first parts. They think they can take shortcuts, through having some special methods and things: you’re supposed to trigger the kundalini energy in the spine, use hallucinogens to get there, and so on. Later on we’ll have an episode of its own on hallucinogens, where we’ll discuss what they are and what they aren’t. But you’ll never get to where we’re talking about with hallucinogens. With ayahuasca or magic mushrooms or whatever it is people use: you won’t get there, because it takes something completely different. And unless you’re willing to go through this process, which is perhaps the most demanding process a human being goes through, but also the most liberating, no awakening can happen any other way. Do you have any closing thoughts, dear Amina?

Amina: Whoa, yes. I’m feeling a bit poetic: who we really are is born when we dare to let go of what we’re not. But it takes a lot of courage.

Pål-Esben: Yes. Very poetic. These episodes about our Sahara, which is timeless and spaceless, are meant as inspiration, dear listener. But also with honesty: it isn’t as if you just dream your way there, or that there’s a simple fix. It’s a process you need to go through. But the way I experience it, and probably you too, Amina: it’s the most rewarding process a human being can go through.

Amina: Oh, I can vouch for that a hundred times over. Really. I’m so grateful for this process. On the way to real freedom.

Pål-Esben: In the next episode we’ll carry on talking about the path to genuine spiritual awakening: we’ll look at the process you go through, and then we’ll get into the chakra system and look at it a bit more practically. Later on we’ll also talk about what this feels like, seen from Amina’s point of view, that is, what experiences of oneness feel like. And towards the end of this series of episodes we’ll also have an episode about the first practical steps you can take: we’ll show you how to go about it: how you start the meditation process and what it takes. We’ll get a bit practical towards the end, so that you can begin to experiment with this a little yourself. Thank you so much for staying with us all the way, dear listener. We really appreciate your feedback, and a five-star rating on Spotify helps our podcast reach more listeners. And thank you so much for being here with me, Amina. I really appreciate it.

Amina: Likewise, Pål-Esben.

Pål-Esben: Thank you for being with us, dear listener. I hope you’ll join us again in the next episode. And until then: have a truly wonderful day, evening, night or morning, wherever you are listening from. Take care.

Outro

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of “The Journey to Self-Realization”, a primordial shamanic journey of development back to your true nature. We hope Amina’s story has inspired you to explore your own journey of self-discovery and development. Remember that the path from suffering to self-realization can be demanding, but with courage, patience and support from a competent guide, mentor, teacher or therapist, almost anything is possible. We wish you all the best on your journey, and we’ll talk again in the next episode.